Assignment: In Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong, read the chapter assigned below. Write a response, following the Reader Response Guidelines (above). React to and comment upon at least two of your classmates responses.
Chapter 10: What did you learn about jobs in France?
Mathew Dumay
ReplyDelete11/8/2016
FRN 101
Reader response #9
One of the main differences that exist in our society between the french society is our workflow. “Six million civil servants work in the French administration. That’s one French citizen in ten, or a quarter of the entire work force” (Barlow, Nadeau p. 131). The society is said to be split into three divisions amongst the civil service: A, B, and C’s. The C class positions are those that are rank-and-file. These people rarely have university degrees, and they work jobs at the embassy, or a clerk of some kind. The B ranked jos are technicians, or non-commissioned officers. They are what we would call our social workers, teachers, or civil aviation technician-controllers. Lastly are the A’s who are mostly officers. Most of them possess postgraduate degrees. They are our engineers, architects, professors, inspectors, or city planners. “Any person who wants to be a civil servant for any job must go through a concours that can require up to two years of studying and preparation” (Barlow, Nadeau p. 133). But even though these standards are high, the French have life security with the jobs. “Many employees are lodged at the corners of the French territory” (Barlow, Nadeau p.134). But with this, you might expect a French native to sit around and not have an active work life- but you’re wrong. The work life is incentive-based, thus forcing people to thrive. Civil servants aim for a good mark, in order to speed up a promotion and attain senior positions.
I like how you used quotes from the chapter in your response. In your last sentence where you say the work life is incentive based, I wish they would bring that up more in the chapter.
DeleteGreat points from the reading, and had so many correlations that this country stands for
DeleteThe examples used are great! I think your comparisons are spot on too.
DeleteNice response, Matt. But, on the part about having a secure position for life. While that may be nice, if someone is unable to do the job no matter what, then essentially they both betray what's expected, and all their time and effort would be for nothing. They'd have to live with that fact from then on. It can be create negativity as well.
DeleteSorry, the above was to Brandon Aspan.
DeleteIn the US you could say you want to go to school to be a social worker, but that's different from France where most jobs people hold there are under the category or civil servant. If you look in the newspaper in the US there will be a couple of job advertisements for car services, restaurants and maybe once in awhile an office job. But in France, their newspaper shows all the civil servant job openings with their description and how much you will get paid. These jobs can range from janitors, engineers, teachers and executives. Each civil servant job has a rank from C to A. C would be the low qualifying jobs that don’t require a degree like janitor or health service. B jobs would be teachers or social workers, things that you need a degree in. The A workers would be executive positions, engineers and architects. Because a lot of jobs fall under this category you would think that it’d be easy to get one of these jobs. Usually only 4% of the people who apply for these jobs get them. There are intense interviews, orals and tests you have to pass, in different stages to get these jobs. I would compare the tests to like the MCAT where you prepare for so long and hard for it. But with getting these jobs there are many benefits to it. You can get free housing until you earn enough money to buy your own. It usually depends on your family and financial needs. If you are a single parent or you and your spouse don’t have great jobs, you will usually get more help and pay from the government.
ReplyDeleteThats funny that you say towards the end is sort of true because here in the united states the government sort of helping needy families to an extent.
DeleteI like that you included the social status of citizens too! I think it added to the explanation
DeleteI'd be fine with seconding the agreement above. It was nice that you included the assistance part mentioned in the chapter. Hopefully, people still doing well in their jobs with the help is the rule in general rather than the exception. Brandon Aspan
DeleteThis form of "specialization" is fascinating idea, but this could also spur discrimination. But it is nice to see that income inequality is greatly lowered with this form.
DeleteFrance is a place that is different and forward thinking when it pertains to the common wealth of there people comparied to North America, where they believe that it is every man for themselves. There are civil servants split in France that is justified by how the State believes is good for the country's well-being. One way that the french fix the money, and employment issues is when the established job catergories, c, being jobs like health services with no college degrees, b, being jobs like social working and teachers with some college degrees. Then there are the a's which offers post-grad with jobs similar to professors and city planners(132).what is very interesting is the french civial service had the incentive to force people to strive(134). Instead of North America helping there fellow citizen, comparied to france that has had decided throughout histroy to help there common french man. "The difference is that the united states leaves it up to individuals to take care for themselves, while french state had an absolute monopoly on everything that falls under the heading of "the common good" i feel that alot of the time France is misrepresented when it pertains to giving and charitable giving.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting though, because as forward thinking we tend to believe France is, others may look at France and think that they are behind. We might think that some of their practices could be medieval.
DeleteI like how you compared the US and France a lot. I agree that the US is a lot about for themselves while in France the people work for the common wealth and good.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the book, I have learned that France has numerous differences than the United States. Some of these differences, I think we should adopt and others I think we have become accustomed to and learned to master. The work force is one of these major differences. In France, most citizens are considered civil servants, but all jobs are broken down into 3 class levels. The C class includes positions that do not require a degree and are rarely filled by those who have a degree. These would be jobs at the embassy or as a clerk. The B class contains jobs such as technicians or teachers that require a degree. The final class of A workers are engineers and architects. Only a small amount of applicants actually acquire the job after long rounds of testing and interviews. The French state offers the people multiple avenues of help and support, whereas the US requires its citizens are more independent.
ReplyDeleteI agree that we need to find a better way of adding support to our citizens.
DeleteI like the comparison you made with the US- US citizens stress independence more then French citizens do.
DeleteIn this chapter, I have learned that France is more different than I previously thought from the United States. There are certain policies and ideals that I believe could benefit the United States of America while others I believe we should stay as far as possible from. Our working conditions are probably the biggest wedge as far as differences between the United States and France. There seems to be more divide at the working class level than we have. The United States has an issue were the working class feel like they don’t have the jobs or hours to make it through life without involving itself in criminal activity. This creates a divide between the Upper class and the middle/working class citizen. The French go a step further and create classes between the working class. This in turn creates wedges between even more groups who feel like they work just as hard, if not more, than those who are ahead of them. The individual is a stronger concept than in French culture. The French are more likely to make decisions that benefit the mass oppose to the individual. This is one thing I believe America could benefit from because if we are all just looking out for ourselves and our families, the country’s divide will only continue grow more and more.
ReplyDeleteThe point you made about criminal activity within the US was interesting- it does seem a lot more prevalent in the US than France.
DeleteFrance is far different than the US because of their government form of Centralization. Technically we have that here with the Federal government vs the State government however do you believe if the Federal government was a centralized here as it is in France that our country could benefit.
DeleteOne of the main details in the section following last one’s one on French politics is how well-equipped people must be for careers related to serving the French community. This is enabled with the centralization of the French State. In this sense, the French refer to “State” as an all-encompassing body which handles public and private matters and help throughout all lifetimes in France, which is apparent throughout this section. To emphasize this point, Julie Barlow states, “The French State was created to “make France” --- to build it and hold it together.” (136) Other sources of anecdotal evidence is used as support, the effectiveness of which varies.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, the public service sector in France is both extremely rigorous and rewarding to those successful. But, our authors come to learn that the continue to be kept to a fine standard. The inner structure, built on three levels ensures anyone on any level is accountable to someone, from higher up or by their peers. They still need to meet standards through testing even while holding a position. It seemed refreshing in a sense to learn that people in civil service are usually treated with respect; a nice reward for their continued effort. Another factor brought up in this section was contrasting how negative associations of civil service jobs observed when Jean-Benoit and Julie returned from France back home. The authors use an example describing returned efforts, but I’m not sure whether the metaphor used was the proper one for this case. The general point for it was clear, though. Viewpoints on civil service jobs differ, but the extent of how they differed was more than I imagined, or even expected. Brandon Aspan
I agree that it is refreshing to learn that they treat civil service employees with respect. It would be so much different if that was the case here
DeleteIn chapter 10, Barlow and Nadeau discuss the classification of civil servants within France- the categories that these workers are placed in are labeled A, B, and C. Those that are a part of group C are categorized as rank- and- file. They work in jobs such as civilian aids to the army’s health service, embassy clerk, or school lab assistants. The people who work in these positions rarely have university degrees. Those that are a part of group B are technicians, non- commissioned officers, tax controllers, social workers, teachers, civil aviation technician- controllers. These people may have a degree, but are usually under the regulation of the people in group A. Group A consists of those that have a post- graduate degree. Jobs under this category include engineers, professors, architects, or city planners. These people have the power to come up with regulations and enforce them on those of a lower category. Finally, there is a group labeled as A+, which includes top- ranking civil servants, or the equivalent of staff officers or executives.
ReplyDeletePrior to reading this chapter, I had never realized this system of the work-place in France. It was interesting to see how there is a system for “civil servants” that vaguely reminds me of a caste system- those with seemingly more authority or power are placed at a higher level than others. This system is quite different to that in America, where those of a “higher” position aren’t labeled as something different which subsequently gives them more prestige.
I like how you tied in your response to learning about their job system. I too, think it is quite interesting and fascinating how those in power are not labeled differently.
DeleteJobs in France are much more concise and harder to obtain but, the benefits are major. Although, just like in America there is different types of classes based on jobs. But, unlike how we label them as lower, middle and upper class they simply call it A, B or C. C being the uneducated ones, the lower of the spectrum, such as your labor workers. Class B is the ones that have some type of schooling, take it your teachers and officers. Finally, A is the upper of them all, the graduates who have the most schooling. Even though, France has a similar working class scale, their requirements vary. Unlike in America where almost anyone can get a simple civil job. In France civil jobs contain having to take several examinations for the position. You compete with hundreds of other people who want the job as well, and it consists of several written and oral exams. These civil jobs are severe to get into, it is not easy entry. It often takes around 2 years of study and training to fully understand the job. Although entry is crucially hard, once given the job there is job security. You would be sure that keeping the job would not be a difficult task. Whereas in America there is not certain job security, anything can happen. This chapter definitely teaches you the cultural differences in how economy is run.
ReplyDeleteI think it is really interesting how in France there is job security unlike in America where anything can happpen.
DeleteI also like how you commented on job security. In America it is so unpredictable what can happen because in America, everyone seems to be working for themselves. In France, they are working for France, and when everyone is centered on a common goal, everyone is taken care of.
DeleteIn France many French citizens strive for a job in the civil service. There are only about six million civil servants that work in the French administration, that’s only a quarter of the entire work force. The biggest job field in France is education. With over one million employees. In France that’s more people than in the military. Frances civil servants are divided into about eight hundred corps, according to their certain qualifications. Like in the army Frances civil servants are ranked. Civil servants in France belong to three categories, A, B, and C. The C’s are the people who don’t have university degrees and work jobs as assistants, clerks, and aids. The B’s are technicians, tax controllers, social workers and teachers. The B’s also apply the regulations made by the A’s. The A’s are the officers who have degrees and are engineers, professors, inspectors, and architects. There is another category called the A+’s, these are the top ranked civil servants, the equivalent of executives and staff officers. To have full civil servant status people in France have to take a series of exams with a lot of people competing for only a certain number of positions and the top few hundred go o to take an oral exam.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that the strict vetting tools they use to choose their candidates in a public service job is an extreme in some opinions.
DeleteI also commented about the ladder of the As, Bs, and Cs. It its interesting that there is an actual way of measuring the importance of each job and category. Civil servants are a very admirable profession to me.
DeleteI learned in chapter 10 that the French have something called the "Etat" which can define culture, run their economy, dispense welfare and charity and defines and defends common good. What it means exactly is that the French have one centralized government. However their view of their citizens is opposite of America because they believe people were not born citizens but became them. Many of the French look to publications in hope of finding a career in public service and the France population has a large amount of them. Public servants are divided into 3 categories A,B, and C with C's needing the lowest education and A's with the most. So France has citizens that are willing to work for their country but they have a vigorous vetting process, why? Because their government in centralized, they believe that only the best should serve the government since it's direct effort to the people. Success rates for public service exams are low and vary from 1 to 12 percent.The French accept that the states cost money and when they do poor the demand the state to do better. You compare this to America where as a country we have our states set up as individuals under one federal government its harder to synchronize the amount of standards and practices.In France their taxes go towards helping the charity's and those on well fare and they see this as act of participating rather than community gatherings. In France all roads lead to Paris and they don't see lines drawn across regions which makes their political system easier to make decisions. Centralization in France works because they embrace assimilation, general interest, and equality.
ReplyDeleteDavid Gibson
ReplyDeleteFrance has a civil service that speaks of the spirit of the French. The French administration has six million civil servants. Education is the biggest employment force. Education employs one million employees. Civil servants belong to their categories. A,B,C, the C's are ranked and file. The B's are technicians, the equivalent of sous officers ( non- commissioned officers)The A's are the officers and must have post degrees. A's make up top mark civil servants, the equivalent of staff officers or executives. Civil service in France is service and have to go through high level training. People applying to civil service jobs must go through a concours(133). They have to go to school to study for two-years and preparation. The success note for civil service in 1999 was 4 percent.The success rate for all jobs vary from 1 to 12 percent. David Gibson
Jordyn Konar
ReplyDeleteReader Response 9
In this chapter the authors are talking about the jobs in France. In the text, it states that, “France’s six million civil servants are divided into about eighteen hundred corps, according to their qualifications” (page 132). Civil servants would be another term for the common people, the people who work on a daily basis to make a living and to support their families. In the text it talked about how there are three different categories that the common people belong to and when I was reading this I made me think of how our job/class system is here in the U.S. The category C for the French is the rank-and-file, or in other words if we think of the three categories as a pyramid the C category would be at the bottom of the pyramid. As the book states, “they rarely have university degrees, and they work jobs like civilian aid to the army’s health service, embassy clerk, or school lab assistant” (page 132). When we look at the American system as a triangle the bottom of our system are kind of similar they are the people who don’t have a college degree or rarely have one. They have jobs that do not pay all that much and sometimes those people end up working more than one job just to make it by. The next category in the French system is the B category. According to the book, “the Bs are technicians, the equivalent of sous-officers (non-commissioned officers). They are tax controllers, who may have a university diploma, apply the regulations made by the As” (page 132). So the people who would be a part of the B category would be in the middle of the triangle. They would be the middle class in the United States system. The last category it talks about is the As which are your high society people. I found that interesting because it does sound a lot like our system here in the United States. The other thing I found interesting was how the French have to go through massive amounts of testing just to get the job they apply for even if they have a degree that is similar to what they had applied for. This is found strange and interesting because here in the U.S. if we have a degree that is similar to the position we apply for that generally can be enough to get the job. I would definitely recommend this chapter to someone else.
Tim Kirby
ReplyDeleteReader Response #9
Let me just start off by saying that because France is one, the French are able to add to that loyalty and keep it unified. What I mean by that is that in America, there is already a divide because of the different states. The more categories in the United States, the harder it is to work for a common goal. That is not the issue with the French however. “The French prefer to use the word “Republic” rather than “State” because l’Etat Français was the official name of the Vichy regime” (127). They don’t even like to use the word state because it already connotes to a separation or divide. What I thought was so interesting and different to American views is the hierarchy that is apparent in France. That is different than in America where we are told that al men are equal, but in France, there seems to be a respect for those in the higher class. “Civil servants belong to three categories: A, B, and C” (132). The Cs are the lower in the pyramid and rarely have university degrees, while Bs have better jobs such as teachers, social workers, etc. and may have a university diploma. The As then are the engineers, professors, city planners, and then there is even an A+ category which is the top-ranking civil servants. I have respect for the French for adhering to this, and it reminds me of older times where there was respect for people of higher status. It is interesting to see this, but I admire it. Everyone is working toward the betterment of their one country, France.