Assignment: In Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong, read the chapters assigned below. Write a response, following the Reader Response Guidelines (above). React to and comment upon at least 2 of your classmates responses.
Chapter 5: Compare and contrast France’s emphasis on rhetorical skill with your own education and culture.
One of the main draws when observing conversations around France is the way and style of speech. This is demonstrated with their gift of rhetoric, the planned use of statements. A distinction is made very clear in the text about the word. What’s usually referred to by rhetoric and this may be opposite to each other. To be more specific, this system shows how any speech, from debates and others are lengthened and become popular, based on what Nadeau, Barlow observed.
ReplyDeleteIn a sense, this comes as the result of steady effort with the French region-wide education system. In a way, it seems like there were differing priorities when it comes to topics relating to use of the language. On one hand, having a variety of views presented through novels and stories was what I went through. In essence, this meant a balanced type of perspectives, according to the school board’s plans. And yet, in the differing point of view, there’s education of the French, which has been previously described. Except, no direct quotes were used.
The level that it’s emphasized within the culture surprised me with how thorough the art of eloquence is, through all classes. As an added bonus, this favors those whose careers are in the writing field, such as the authors. Most times it seems the efforts of journalists are underappreciated, which is good in France. That’s one great side not from this part. Even then, how this field is viewed still differs. Really, when the emphasis of “bringing the standards of written and oral speech up” (paraphrased p.66) would be a great lesson to keep in mind. Overall, the level of refinement that the French insists upon their language was a great part to learn. (Brandon Aspan)
As I learned of the French Rhetoric skills is that they are careful of their language. The students before leaving home often practice their language. Compared to my culture we may have practice speech young but then it wears off. David Gibson
DeleteRhetoric skills are so important in France, setting up verbal strength is imperative.
DeleteIn chapter 5, draw an image of the importance and art of rhetoric in France. They are constantly using a template by presenting an idea, showing objectives, then summarizing. What makes this aspect of their culture interesting is that it has been embodied into their society since a youth. It also has evolved to the point to where they argue just for fun. Arguments in France require data, analysis, and references to even be considered as argumentative and it’s always seen as a competition among individuals like a sort of ongoing way to one up the other. In my opinion it sounds like a headache, but then again I am Italian so I’m used to the same situation only with louder voices and lots of hand gestures. However, I found it interesting that in these conversations the French are inclined to have multiple conversations and are even praised to interrupt more. I find that Donald Trump certainly has that part nailed down. The idea to aspire have Esprit to me seems like a fascinating cultural drive. It means to high conversational brilliance, meaning quick with replies with any subject while presenting to be knowledgeable. Personally it seems hard but from this reading I imagine it being fairly easy to the French since their education practices this form of rhetoric for years before even going to college. Even when they come across a subject that is unfamiliar to them the French refuse to say “I don’t know” not only because they truly are knowledgably of the subject but because they find it as a form of arrogance by refusing to join the conversation. It’s something that amazes me because just like anyone else I’ve been stumped before on issues and had always wished of the right words to say. Unlike Donald Trump of course who no matter what topic if brought up he always find something to say, sadly it’s always something ridiculous of course. You can even compare the journalism in France and America because in France part of their rhetoric culture influences this industry as well. The author explains that French journalist just like American one go give facts on a given news topic however theirs is wordier because they like to give their opinions as facts and can include long details of their ideas around a subject. Sometimes it doesn’t even have to be right or wrong, the goal is goal is to explain your case. Which sadly again sounds to me more and more like Donald Trump. I’m not sure if this pattern is logical but I can’t be the only one who sees this right?
ReplyDeleteI really like how you used Donald Trump as an example- it was a good way of tying in something prevalent in today's media
DeleteYeah, the part about the system behind journalism seemed like an interesting contrast. It's been popping up recently, when I've seen it. Brandon Aspan
DeleteYour analogy was interesting and a good way to relate the topic to current topics. Which way of conversation do your prefer? Should Americans strive to incorporate more rhetoric?
Delete" the art of rhetoric is so alien to North American culture that few people even understand what it is....it is a treasured art by the french" it is not mere science of persuasion and oratory. it is the art of eloquence whether in writing or in speech"(Barlow p.62). how the french rhetoric is to their people is in emericaning their children while they are still attending grammar school for the most influence. the emphasis shows up in every level of society. the first example of the difference of rhetoric in North America compared to France is the behavior and communication used in a movie theater, the Americans would sit and anaylize while the french would state it had great dialogue with pictures and not over think the situation. another compare and contrast is verbal expression for instance " the french refuses to utter 'i don't know'; while North Americans use it to convey an impression of openness,ingenuity,and honesty." but the french consider it shameful to admit you don't understand something. the last comparison i think that really hits home is how the french value writers not because of their education campaigned to North American but rather enages being committed to the cause and contributing to something more (70).
ReplyDeleteI like the point you made about how the phrase 'I don't know' is rarely used by the French; whereas it holds a lot of meaning in North American rhetoric. It shows the importance that the French place on expressing yourself in an articulate way.
DeleteThe art of rhetoric is extremely cherished in France. The concept of eloquence within speech or writing while expressing rhetoric is both valued and treasured by these individuals. The French are seen to practice this articulate way of speaking and or writing from a young age; French school teachers emphasize the importance of planning one’s composition early on. This carries onto adulthood, where an emphasis on linguistic skill shows up in every level of society in France. Barlow and Nadeau state, “Even the beggars in the Paris subway do their best to be eloquent, each almost ritualistically following the same order of ideas,” (63). The French value the significance of conversation and discussion, and constantly do their best to relay what they’re feeling in a precise and expressive way. Barlow and Nadeau go on to discuss the prevalence of the concept of esprit in France, and how most French conversations denote the highest degree of informal brilliance.
ReplyDeleteHowever, emphasis on rhetorical skill is not as ubiquitous within American speech. In fact, as stated by Barlow and Nadeau, “The art of rhetoric is so alien to North American culture that few people even understand what it is,” (62). Hardly any importance is placed upon eloquent speech in the United States; people usually just say what they are feeling without much thought into the organization, expression, or articulacy of their words. This concept remains constant to what I’ve experienced- most people pay closer attention to the content of their speech rather than the quality of it, exemplifying the lack of importance placed upon coherent speech.
I agree with much you have written.The French rhetoric speech is it pearl and is cherish much. Their genuine speech is much impressive and deserves a bow. When speaking to Frenchmen they make you want to clear your speaking as well. David Gibson.
DeleteWhich style do you prefer? Should Americans use more rhetoric? I think you explained both styles well.
DeleteRhetoric in the French language is to the statement “I don’t know” in American culture. Both are used with extreme frequency in their respective cultures but rarely used in the other. The French incorporate rhetoric in their daily dialogue because it has become an essential aspect; however, the phrase ‘I don’t know’ is rarely used because the phrase itself insinuates that the speaker is of low intelligence because they don’t have the correct answer or an answer at all. Americans use this phrase in almost even conversation because to us it shows honesty and simplicity. Rhetoric is used to show the high status that the French hold themselves to in their eloquence and their intelligence. On the other hand, most American speech is dedicated to stating exactly how the speaker is feeling without an importance on how sophisticated the interaction is. The French often incorporate multiple conversations into one as well. This is simple a style native to the culture.
ReplyDeleteI like how you explained how different the conversations in the two countries are. Like you said the French like to hold themselves to a high standard and make themselves look smart, when in the US our conversations are usually with feelings and relaxed.
DeleteIn this chapter is focused a lot on how France’s rhetorical skill differed from ours in the US. One of the examples the chapter gives is how beggars on the subway in France are able and accepted for giving a speech on why they deserve money and how they got to this point. In the US most would react with weird looks or even by shushing the beggar. In France most are brought up with this rhetorical skills that show eloquence. They start learning grammar skills before they go to school, when in the US lots of kids don’t even know how to read before they’re put into school. Another thing is that the French correct others mid conversation when the grammar isn’t right or something wasn’t said correctly. This isn’t seen as rude, as it is in the US, but is expected which makes me super nervous for when I want to try out my speaking skills. I thought it was interesting that instead of the French saying I don’t know that they rephrase the question instead to try and get out of looking dumb. I can’t even count the number of times I say I don’t know in a day. Here in the US, being a writer isn’t the best job to have. In France though this is one of the best jobs you can have. You’re seen as an intellectual in France if you are a writer. I think it’s very interesting how different our two countries can see that profession.
ReplyDeleteIt was great to see how in France, the art of writing was seen as more than what it is here in America. French aren't worried about the pay, their worried about the value of their work.
DeleteMathew Dumay
ReplyDeleteFRN 101
10/6/2016
Journal #5
“It’s amazing to think that such profound incomprehension arises not from what is said, but from the way it is said” (Barlow, Nadeau p. 73). It is described in this chapter how the French are versed on the art of eloquence. No matter through writing or speaking, the French believe in the importance of rhetoric as well. “But rhetoric is the treasured art of the French, much the way that theater is for the British, singing is for the Italians, and violin is for the Germans” (Barlow, Nadeau p. 62). The chapter further describes that rhetoric appears in almost every form of society; starting from when you’re young and applying to jobs that are just civil service. In conversations with others, conversation follows a structure of thesis-antithesis-synthesis. This allows for the conversation to last for hours, with much to say. On the contrary, in America we strive for complicity and understanding, while in France they strive for visceral debates for knowledge. The French even have a hard time admitting that they “don’t know.” “It’s considered either a mark of stupidity or, strangely, of arrogance-because it means you refuse to engage in conversation” (Barlow, Nadeau p. 66). For some Americans this may be a bit offsetting, but this aggressive form of conversation is the result of seeking wit and intelligence. “French society really does allow anyone to shine, whatever their origin, as long as they can display verbal savoir faire.
Rhetorical skill refers to the art of speaking or writing in an effective manner, often with the intention to persuade or influence. To the French, rhetoric is more than just a skill, more than “a mere science of persuasion and oratory;” it is the “art of eloquence” (62). The value of eloquence is instilled in children from a young age through their education. Rhetoric is taught in schools in a form of a model that the authors describe as following this pattern: “produce an idea, explain possible objects to it, and then sum up conclusions” (62). This method works for both written and oral communication, allowing topics to be dragged out for extended periods of time. French education appears to be more rigorous and demanding from what I have experienced here in the states. While students are expected to be able to communicate effectively through proper speech and grammar, there is no stress on eloquence. If anything, North American cultures seem to value the art of being direct and succinct. Other cultures, such as the French, may enjoyed a structured embellished style of speech, but in America it would be viewed as unnecessary. We do not understand the point of talking just to talk; there always has to be an apparent meaning to our conversations. On the other hand, the French love to talk, and their conversational style is a far cry from polite American small talk. The authors point out that “the French like the level of discussion to be as high as possible” (64). Their conversations tend to play out somewhat like a game, the participants always looking to one up each other. In American culture, this would be considered rude, possibly even bordering on an argument. The authors provided many examples throughout the chapter to illustrate that rhetoric is a significant element of communication in French culture. This is another unique characteristic that sets the French far apart from the culture that we experience here in the States.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Americans care more about the content than the idea. While the French, could care less about the content and just want you to talk about your ideas with them. How different would it be if our culture was the same as France's?
DeleteI agree that Americans care more about the content than the idea. While the French, could care less about the content and just want you to talk about your ideas with them. How different would it be if our culture was the same as France's?
DeleteWhen Americans think of rhetoric it usually entitles to persuading your audience through the use of ethos, logos and pathos. Typically we begin to encounter this step of knowledge when we are in high school. In France, rhetoric is looked at in a different sense and manner. It is not simply about persuading the audience, on the contrary it is more about diffusing the art of eloquence. They take such pride in realizing this, that they start off at a young age using rhetoric. It is used in their daily lives as a elementary student. This is kind of odd because as American’s you question how a young child could even think in this context. But, to the French it is a way of life. For example, in the text it mentioned how even the beggars did not simply ask for money. Instead they give a speech to their audience about why they deserve such charity. This was astounding to me because it’s odd to think that a beggar would have such mentality. All the ones you encounter in America will just ask you for money or even scold you for not doing so. Knowing that beggars in France have more class, is quite interesting. Another interesting concept it how they do not get mad if you interrupt them during a conversation because to them it means you are engaged. Their everyday conversations are not concerning your everyday problems, instead they want to listen to what you have to say. They find it more interesting to know your beliefs and values rather, than what is stressing you out as the moment.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the French treat language as a way of life from childhood to their adolescence. in our educational system however, we don't put enough importance on the rhetoric of our language in every aspect of life.
DeleteIn Chapter 5, we learned that the French are very different from us when it comes to rhetoric and other ways of speech. The meaning of rhetoric is the planned use of the way that each one of us speaks. The French are very peculiar about what they say and how they say it, while us here in the United States are much more Cavalier about the style of our word choice. Barlow and Nadeau observed that the way the French speak has a wide spectrum of mediums. Whether it be casual or formal, the French take pride in their rhetoric. Some may look at this as being uptight or picky nut I actually admire the fact that they strive for excellence as an entire country. Compared to how we are taught from kindergarten to high school, they are much more precise and that means a lot globally. We seem to have a more laisse faire system that blends and works for our country without really caring how we are compared to the rest of the world.
ReplyDeletePhrases such as “I don’t know” are unheard within conversations between Frenchmen unlike us who use that saying quite frequently where we are talking formally or casually. The literature is highly respected by the French people and the art that the authors display is even more respected. The journalists are much more opinionated that you would have expected. However, that’s not much different than the way our media changes and spins the news. That may be the only similarity that the French and Americans shared in this chapter.
I love how you explain how they're uptight and picky. They are very picky about their conversations. I agree about how they're much more precise than Americans. The French strive for excellence in the entire country which is a wonderful thing.
DeleteDavid Gibson October 06,2016
ReplyDeleteFrench 101 Mrs. Leal
Response 5
France is known as a place of class and eloguence. They value eloquence at a young age. France emphasis on rhetoric skills show up in every level of society. They treasure rhetoric as art. Rhetoric is their art of eloquence whether in writing or in speech. When arguing with Frenchmen they all follow the same model. They present an idea, explain possible objection and they sum up their conclusion. French students are all exposed to the same high standards. They are incentives for being eloquent. Before entering into the civil service canidates must pass an exam. Rhetoric skills are even on the subway among beggers in Paris. The French value precision in language. The term une langue chatiee which means a" punished tongue". The students practice grammer and rhetoric before they leave their homes. The French society has high standards for verbally expressing yourself.The French rhetoric skills compared to my own education and culture has some similarities and differences. My culture teaches mannerism and respect for one in public but not all is expected to do so. Unlike the French you may not see a begger using rhetoric skills in America. I personally was brought up around the gospel and an older generation. At a very young age rhetoric skills was practice but as an adult the practice change. In my culture it is not a demand that at every level in society we use are rhetoric skills. You might not hear rhetoric skills being practice in a gym like you would in a bank. The French is very eloquent and careful of word choice. That would make you correct your own choice of words.
Jordyn Konar
ReplyDeleteReader Response 5
In this chapter of the book it is talking about the French’s emphasis on rhetorical skills in their education and in their culture. Most North Americans do not quite understand what it is. According to the author’s on page 62 they state, “the art of rhetoric is so alien to North American culture that few people even understand it.” I agree with that statement I think North Americans are more so straight forward with what they are trying to get across. From a young age the French learn a certain dialect model. According to the author’s on page 62, “Youngsters were once taught to express a progression of ideas. Now they follow a dialectic model of thesis-antithesis-synthesis.” North Americans or at least when I was growing up I was not taught this model until much later in school, where as the French learn this when they really young. But this is also how they talk in conversations. When I think of this form of dialect I think of persuasive writing not in daily conversation. Then again it could be just me. They are tested on their level of rhetorical skills in almost everything including to get a job. In the book it talks about beggars and how they even use rhetorical skills to explain why they need money. In North America you do not see this often if at all. North Americans I think are more straight forward and just ask for money, they do not explain how they got to where they are. I think this chapter was interesting and I do recommend this chapter to others.
In chapter 5, I learned how the French value their eloquence and take it very seriously. When they’re students they are taught to produce plans for their compositions and are graded on them. Students are all exposed to the same high standards even if all of them are not all brilliant. They have a built in incentive for becoming eloquent. Even the high menial government job requires to pass exams that test their knowledge for the position and their general culture. They emphasize on rhetorical skill in every level of society in France. On the Paris subway, beggars even do their best to be eloquent to others. Each ritualistically almost following the same order of ideas as the people they’re talking to. For example, when they start talking to someone they first excuse themselves for bothering them. They explain how they ended up in their conditions. It would usually take them a while to wrap up, and they would lose their general audience. They always sum up their story, by explaining how they need money, something to eat drink, and to stay clean. After they would finish, then they would thank the passengers for listening and wish them a good day as they collect any handouts before exiting the car. Americans wouldn’t expect this type of eloquence from a beggar at all. For example, in America if you were to see a beggar, usually people would ignore them and some aren’t very polite to talk to. The French want their level of conversations to be as high as possible. It is known to be very impolite to interrupt someone when they’re having a conversation. They also find it wrong for you to ramble on about yourself because it’s boring. I love how well the French manners are. I love that they make it very important for the French to have eloquence because it’s an important trait to have. I would love to learn more about how strict it is in France. We’ve talked about in class how important it is with their manners,, and how you could tell the difference from an American and a French because of that
ReplyDeleteI agree that it is nice that the French are taught manners at a young age but it seems a bit much to me. I would think it would getting tiring keeping up a facade for so long.
DeleteRhetoric in France is the art of eloquence in writing or in speech. In France one must take exams to get a civil service job and in America we don’t have that kind of system where you must pass a certain test to work for the government you just simply have to have the qualifications. when the French speak to one another they are always competitive in nature because they are trying to get the upper hand in the conversation demonstrating wit and intelligence which can only happen in confrontation. In America we find it rude to start a confrontation with another individual and every one knows that. The French are also very different from Americans when it comes to the phrase "I don’t know". In France it is considered shameful to admit to not knowing something but in America even when we do know, we say "I don’t know" just to show" humbleness and openness to the other person. In journalism we Americans state only the facts of what as happened in a certain event. In France however journalists state the facts but they state a lot of opinion too. Its so weird read all the different cultural norms that France has and se how different it is than in America.
ReplyDelete