Assignment: In Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong, read the chapters assigned below. Write a response, following the Reader Response Guidelines. React to and comment upon your classmates responses.
Chapter 4: Describe the concept of “grandeur” and France’s thirst for it, giving specific examples. Why do you think it is the case?
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What is the cumul and how does it relate to the concept of grandeur?
David Gibson September 28, 2016
ReplyDeleteFRN 101 Mrs. Leal
Reader Response
In the reading of Chapter 4 of Sixty Million Frenchmen Can’t Be Wrong. The French concept of Grandeur can be describe as being socially accepted. It means excellence and eminence, power, glory and have great moral value. France has tried to keep grandeur among its citizens to keep their language and remain good politicians. The French has a great value for power and privileges can be a compliment. Grandeur in politics can be prized because the individuals unlike in North America are not bigger than the president. The Frenchmen treat their noble positions like prize possessions. They do endure power. Example, in France you can be a minister and prime minister without giving up power of being a mayor. They can hold several offices. Even though cause of grandeur it gives politicians advantages it can also have disadvantages. Female voices in politics can get put down if become to vocal. Also because of grandeur you can have positions forever making it hard for women and immigrants to get in. Since Paris city hall burned in 1871 grandeur has taken its place in the French society. French love of grandeur is an fundamental characteristics of their culture. Example of grandeur is the arrival of the president annual Bastille Day at Elysee Palace and splurging tax payer’s money on champagne and foie gras. I praise France for embracing democracy and grandeur but not embracing lowest common denominator. The French press help the country embrace grandeur by their exposure to stars. They only announce artist by their last name. Grandeur can give Frenchmen pride but can also spark rule of power and control.
once again i feel that when you have all this pride only for your country from a north american perspective, you tend forget all the other problems around the world that might in the long run effect your country from either a political and economical stance. i do a appericate the fact that france loves quality materials but at what cost for people.
DeleteDo you think the term grandeur can be applied to any aspects of America? I think it is a unique word to the country and would be curious to see how a French person would explain the term.
DeleteI think America in itself is a country that is grandeur. The "american dream"...A lifestyle is wished to be attained.
Deletethe french love beauty, power, and elegance. the grandeur is just that, it has the ability to manifest it's self into this entity of one of the fundamental characteristics of french culture( p.48). the translation means excellence, greatness, and evokes glory, power, and intelligence. In france, grandeur is an appreciated value most Frenchman thrive for. pertain to the Frenches thirst, the french press satisfy the country's thirst for grandeur, singling out stars in every domain of life; attributing superior qualities to cultural figures and making them an incarnation of their discipline(49). the french love power and is show cased throughout each aspect of living theme. the downfall though to grandeur is not knowing everything, or becoming big headed that you forget people are people and should not be judged by the amount of money and or status they uphold.
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DeleteI love your comment about how much they love their power. I agree with what you're talking about, because it does seem like they would get big headed about certain things. Also, your statement about people just being people that shouldn't be judged because we all make mistakes. You did a great job explaining the French power, glory, and thirst for grandeur
DeleteI like how you described grandeur as what most fresh people thrive for. I just saw it as in physical things like buildings and architect, but I can see how you describe it to be a personality characteristic.
DeleteI thought your definition of grandeur was on point with what i was thinking but couldn't really find the words to say and i also agree with you 100% that grandeur can have many downfalls.
DeleteThe adjectives you used to help define the word are great!! Can you apply it to something in your life or something you know well? The vocal used in the United States versus in France is something that is so interesting to me.
DeleteYou make a good point, both about this theme and its downfalls. But, some of it may be on the parties doing the blaming as well, sometimes it seems more likely here, or overestimating their role. Both seem to have that kind of tendency, maybe its culturally related? Brandon Aspan
DeleteIn chapter 4 of the reading, grandeur is described to be a socially accepted value in France. The authors specify grandeur as power, glory, and moral and intellectual elevation. It is known for being the greatness and excellence in France. In the 19th century, Alex de Tocqueville praises the United States for embracing the ideals of liberty and democracy; although, he lamented the disappearance of grandeur in the American system. The French, on the other hand, believe in equality, but they don’t grasp onto the lowest denominator. The society in France cooperates in singling out the highest ones that are among them in politics, sports, the arts, etc. I find it interesting how France is similar to the United States with who has the power, but at the same time they are quite different. The way their rules and regulations are set up differently from America’s way. They look for different “great” ones and not just one person to be in charge. They care about their society because their society is who makes up their country. France has created and maintained different and many structures to affirm grandeur among their citizens. The French have a very passionate feeling for grandeur. Unfortunately, the love of grandeur and power doesn’t translate into a tendency to hoard power. During the times for elections, the book talks about how they base them on personal possessions. Grandeur has its advantages in France as well as disadvantages. They are able to be in different offices at once. For example, it gives an example saying what if the secretary of state had also different positions. That would be too much work for that person and they may not be able to concentrate on the important tasks they would need to get done for each position. We haven’t really said much in class about the power that each “higher” and “greater” person has in France, but I loved what the book was saying so far. I would love to talk more about grandeur and the system.
ReplyDeleteI agree that America started began to grasp that idea of grandeur as well. However it did leave behind aspects of that mentality. Do you think maybe taking that mentality of equality, the way the French view it, can change things in America?
DeleteI don't believe that there will ever be true equality. Especially when education is so separated.
DeleteI agree in some stand points and its true that the French similar to America in power. I don't agree that they don't respect the lower common denominator. I do think grandeur gives you pride of your nationality. The French has a lot respect of human kind and are polite. Grandeur helps give you the level from which the respect should be learned from and obtained. David Gibson. September 30,2016
DeleteIn this chapter grandeur is described as greatness that evokes power, glory, moral and intellectuals. While traveling around France you will see buildings with marble floors and gold details just reeking of richness. Just because there are things like this all over the country doesn’t mean that France is that wealthy. France just rather spend money on how beautiful the city is or making a new opera house as the chapter said, instead of spending the money on something else. It’s not like the French people are mad either. This is just the way they’ve grown up and they’re okay with letting their tax money go to beautifying their country even if it means paying more money. Coming from the US this is a little hard to understand. We want every penny we spend on taxes to go towards something we think is important and not every American would think that adding golden lions to a building is good spending. Another thing that is very different from the US is their elite system. If you go to school to be a professeur, businesses management or engineering, you automatically have the elite status and everyone respects and knows it. It’s not like the US where we subtly call out the elites with where you go to college or what house you live in. It’s just straight forward and the French are okay with it. The one thing I didn’t like about this chapter is that it mostly talked about politics. I get so bored with politics, but it was interesting to find out that even when women in France were given more rights, they didn’t really take it.
ReplyDeleteIt is made clear in the first few paragraphs of this chapter that grandeur is something that is hard to explain. Its excellence but not, distinction but not really and this chapter describes France as the essence of grandeur. I think that France is reaching for something that hasn’t been there for a long time, they are reaching for the "perfection" of royalty. Gold leafed buildings, gold plated statues, and even velvet tapestries, all beautiful but before reading this chapter I had no idea there was a history behind all of this. The French have created an elite, a class of high power and knowledge in France and only very few people got to attend. The elite as they call them are expected to use their so called powers and to not show humility or humbleness because that shows weakness and the elite cannot be weak. To me it seems like the French really value power and privilege more than they value anything else and I believe that this could lead to many problems for the French. I think its interesting that they have created their ow elite but overall it makes me mad because it makes the French seem like a snobby, stuck up, materialistic society.
ReplyDeletei agree that the way the french spend their money and the way they want others to view them doesn't look good. However, I believe that the French are not materialistic, I just believe their way of showing improvement and hard-work is different.
DeleteBrandon Aspan
ReplyDeleteOne quality seemed to run as an undercurrent during the observations by the authors. As a whole, it spread through all events in France. That quality is grandeur, which is the topic for this section. In an interesting style, this quality also can apply and be used to a great extent. From how the term is used there, it’s used to describe the qualities of known greats throughout history. As a whole, the accomplishments are valued even more than the person who did it. In this case, the phrasing when the qualities in political thought mean everything. In France, this is referred to as, say for example their President, Jacques Chirac, his term is referred to as ‘la Chiraquie’. The ownership quality of it seems understandable, but I don’t agree with how this is interpreted. In addition, this phrasing also applies to the terms reported in other countries.
Other qualities of grandeur seem to extend to be about doing the most when special occasions occur, no matter what its about or where. It varies on what is produced and how successful this is, on location naturally. Most politicians also aim to develop their skills in other fields. Sometimes they hold multiple positions, which would seem worrisome from a different prespective. While I understand the reasons from a career standpoint, and how someone develops it, most wouldn’t try it simultaneously. As much as this seems concerning, the system seemed to work.
And yet, it attracted its share of opponents. “[], the cumul has been hotly debated and criticized in political circles, especially by the Left.” (p. 57)
While this topic covered is interesting, the way it was covered could have been better, with more specific sources. I’m not sure whether this system in France happened as a result of history, or the other way around.
In this chapter we learn that the French’s priorities revolve around appearance to everyone around them because it shows them in a favorable light. The tax money that is collected from the citizens of France are put towards the betterment of France’s cosmetic s as it is concerns to the lay of the land. Grandeur is the reason for this kind of decision making. Grandeur is evoking power, glory, and moral and intellectual elevation. This definition applies that majority of France are okay with putting money towards making the countries appearance look good oppose to tackling other issues that they otherwise would have. The goal and culture for many of the French is to be part of the elites as far as class is concerned. This is counter-culture to many of us Americans as we do not openly show of elitist status or do we? To me Americans are open about our wealth too just not to the same extent as the France do. Whether it be our schools, our neighborhoods, or our cars we show off how we make in terms of money whether we realize it or not.
ReplyDeleteTo me, the French are entitled to handle their money anyway their citizens deem acceptable, however I do believe this way of spending money doesn’t look favorable to other countries. The vibe I’m getting from this chapter is that the French are more interested in superiority than the essential and basic needs that every nation should spend its resources to improve on.
It also seemed to me as though the French care more about power or nobility as opposed to other more basic needs. It's definitely contradictory to America's way of thinking, which is what made it interesting.
DeleteA common theme amongst the authors is the term grandeur. This expression can be used to describe how grand the accomplishments of all the culturally influential people in history. The term also depicts the quality of these people. However, this unique term can not be simplified down to just one definition. This term is commonly used with the elite class of French such as “la Chiraquie” as in the President,, Jacques Chirac. When I think of grander, I instantly think of great, powerful, elegante, and full of glory. This term is perfect to describe the unique architecture of France in the gold plated accents, marble flooring, and extravagant artwork. America has lost its sense of grandeur. However, the term doesn’t always have positive connotations, such as too high of expectations of a person usually in a high position. I think the title of grandeur is one that a person must work to obtain but also one of high regard. I think this simple word leads to a discussion, and I would be curious to see how it can be applied in America.
ReplyDeleteIn America there are many forms of success that people can stride for. What would you think is a field that is undisputed as a form of grandeur in America?
DeleteIn France, grandeur is acquired to achieve a high status. I like what you said about it not always being said with a positive connotation such as people in such a high position.
DeleteGrandeur is a concept both unique and fundamental to French culture. The word is difficult to translate accurately into English, as it encompasses much more than the connotation of the English word “greatness” can portray. To the French, grandeur is fervently sought after, as it evokes not only grand aesthetic appeal but “power, glory, and moral and intellectual elevation” (48). While the French are willing to pay a pretty penny for the sake of maintaining the “trappings of royalty,” as the authors put it, they also desire to single out exceptional individuals to create an elite class. This desire for grandeur and for the common people to be led by a class of exceptional elites is the root of how a concept such as the cumul is so readily accepted by the French. By the virtue of grandeur, the French people love and value power. According to Nadeau and Barlow, “power is something you use and show in France” (52). So then, it makes sense that the French elite would use their positions to pursue grandeur and acquire as much power and privilege as possible. The cumul is the practice of holding multiple political offices at once. French officials can hold any combination of offices in the five levels of French government: Command, Départmental, regional, national, and European levels. Arguments from the politicians who practice cumul, or the cumulards, claim that “holding more than one office at a time allows deputes and senators to keep in touch with their grassroots supporters. While this concept may seem a bit undemocratic to an America, the French expect their officials to take advantage of their positions. It’s not a concept that I, a rather liberal American, ever see myself supporting, but when viewed in the context of French grandeur, it is not so hard to understand.
ReplyDeleteDo we have a well respected system to tell which individuals are a form of elites in America? For instance do the Kardashians count as aristocrats of America? Please say no.
DeleteI agree that grandeur is sought after and is much more important in the average French persons life and culture. This concept of grandeur is not as popular in America although there are celebrities whom we try to impersonate.
DeleteGrandeur is a big part of the French culture that does not simply translate easily to English. It is a much greater concept than just simply power. They see it as the evoking of power, glory, moral and intellectual elevation. The French like to display this idea of grandeur in the form of their buildings, fountains, bridges, and statues. Placing gold plated statues to adorn churches, bridges and fountains; allows them to make “important” or “royalty” items, stand out. This is all based on their idea of fundamental characteristics and not just for the looks of it. Because they value power and privileges, they obtained an elite society. This is “the officer” of the social classes, the one who is more knowledgeable and contains more power than the rest. Often times the French society gives special privileges to this social class in the ways of skipping lines. The astonishing thing about this is that all citizens are perfectly fine with having certain people skip lines because they know that everyone is not equal. Americans have a tendency to find a way to establish that everyone is equal and make it work, so seeing French culture say no, no one is equal is out of the norm. But, what America does not understand is that the French are able to make that work. They have no issues arising because of the inequality, on the contrary their society is very well formed. They are people who crave that power and someone taking charge.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you said about how it is interesting that though the French have a much clearer division of power/nobility than the United States, they are still able to make it work without evoking hostility.
DeleteChapter four brings up the concept of grandeur and its impact on culture and politics. I find it fascinating how it sets a hierarchy to the people of the French culture. Grandeur is basically the idea of being one the greats or being the exception to the rules. Because France used to be ruined by royalty, they consider to select aristocrats in their society. They even find it reassuring to hear from intellects in every scientific field of study. For instance, the College de France was created to pick out the country’s top 50 professors for free lectures about their specialty. Becoming one of the elites in France is tied in with responsibility, in order to become an intellectual of that status these individuals are respected highly for pursuing public service. These individuals are also treated differently and are far more respected. For instance, if you’re in line at a store these citizens of the elite can cut in line and others won’t raise a fuss because of their status in society. The French love power and they like it when power is shown. In their politics cumulards are those who accumulate commands like senators and politicians. In contrast to America this is very different, our society believes all men are created equal and we the people have the power to hold our government accountable for their actions. That’s why It be really fun to see what a typical trucker would do if a French man tried to cut him in line at the bank.
ReplyDeleteThe French term grandeur literally translates to “greatness” or “excellence”, but its definition holds a much more profound meaning; more so than simply evoking power, glory, and intellectual elevation, the term is an extremely sought- after ideology in France. Grandeur doesn’t just refer to the country’s exquisite architecture and priceless antiques, but also denotes French magnates by singling out the greatest individuals in politics, the arts, intellectual life, and sports. As stated by Barlow and Nadeau, “The French press also helps satisfy the country’s thirst for grandeur by singling out stars in every domain of life,” (49). Journalists in France exemplify this notion by attributing superior qualities to cultural figures in an attempt to proliferate the country’s preeminence. This French love for grandeur is exemplified through Barlow and Nadeau’s discussion of how The Academie Française, which policies the French language, is run by forty elected “immortals” who are chosen among the top French intellectuals. Similarly, The College de France selects the country’s top professors to give lectures on their specialties. This proves that even when it comes to literature or education, the French epitomize grandeur by only selecting the most qualified people to represent their country. It seems to me as though the French greatly value the importance of a person’s name or title, but may fail to acknowledge others who may not have prestige but have just as much intellect or capability. The possible reason for this concept could relate back to the main idea of grandeur: the struggle for eminence or distinction as well as the endeavor to obtain glory and moral advancement overpowers the need to idealize those who do not have as much power or prestige.
ReplyDeleteMathew Dumay
ReplyDeleteFRN 101
Prf. Leal
Reader Response 4
“Grandeur is a tough concept to translate. The closest equivalent, “greatness”, brings to mind “eminence”, “distinction”, and “excellence’” (Barlow, Nadeau p. 48). In this chapter, the authors explain how within the French ideology, grandeur is a socially accepted value. The chapter than continues on a talks about how there are actually special schools, in which there is elite training for managerial, civil, and teaching positions. Foreigners criticize this notion, but “...the whole system is setup to find and cultivate an elite” (Barlow, Nadeau p. 51). As the book explained, the french love power- they don’t expect humility from their higher officials. But, it causes a sense of discrimination and perpetuation of power.
There becomes a cultural divide, a separation of sorts, which can lead to political prejudice. They also talk about sexism within politics and in the society. Primarily, France granted their women a right to vote quite late(1944). Secondly, the French women only hold 10% of parliamentary positions, as compared to the 20% here within the United States. “The difference in the balance of gender representation in politics between France and North America is a matter of degrees, not quantum leaps” (Barlow, Nadeau p. 58). But interestingly enough, French women do not look at the issue of rights or representation with the same eyes as we do. French women are still holding quite influential positions, but have not yet broken the barriers that the Americans or even other Europeans have.
Jordyn Konar
ReplyDeleteReaders Response 4
In this chapter it talks about the concept of “grandeur” and also how France has a thirst of it. The authors begin to use the term grandeur on page 48. The authors’ state that, “the closest equivalent, “greatness,” brings to mind “eminence,” “distinction,” and “excellence.” It evokes power, glory, and moral and intellectual elevation.” For the French grandeur is a value that they are socially okay with. It also states in the reading that, “the French press helps satisfy the country’s thirst for grandeur by singling out stars in every domain of life” (page 49). I found it interesting that there are schools in France that there is a school that is known for training the best civil servants and also government officials. It does state in the reading that, “foreigners often criticize the grandes ecoles system for being elitist, but creating an elite is the school’s very purpose” (page 51). I found it somewhat surprising that the term elite in North America and in elite in France mean different things. The French feel the need to create an elite. Where in North America we have ivy league schools and usually you are born into the elite class. I liked this chapter I found it very interesting. I would recommend this chapter to others.
Tim Kirby
ReplyDeleteWith the title of the chapter being "Grandeur is Better" one can already get a sense of the pride and prestige that the French get out of their work and who they are. As said on page 48, grandeur is hard to translate exactly to English but it has many connotations associated with it. It can translate to "greatness" and "excellence", but it also "evokes power, glory and moral and intellectual elevation" (48). There is a very clear sense of hierarchy in France which is respected and admired. It is interesting to me that there is such a system of hierarchy when in America, the direction seems to be going to an "all are equal" approach. “The real question, perhaps, is why the French feel they need to deliberately “create” an élite at all. An élite is a civil servant which implies “not just privileges, but also duties” (51). There is a sense of duty, privilege, and respect that comes with being an élite. There is also a sense of respect for France as a culture and country where as these élites have duties to uphold the grandeur of France. It is admiring to me that pride and strive for excellence in France. I feel in America, that concept is not thought about enough or at all. But not only that, the French act upon their feelings and “the whole society cooperates to single out the great ones among them in politics, the arts, intellectual life, sports, and more” (49). If America thought that same way and acted upon it, especially in politics, this upcoming election would look a lot different.
I liked that you mentioned that Americans may not appreciate tradition in the same way as the French (i.e. Gold lions on buildings). I found it ironic that you mentioned that Americans have a higher standard for tax allocation when, in fact, we have one of the most irresponsible tax systems/government in modern industrial world. Meaning, we see almost no benefit from our tax investments.
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